The Vintage Airstream E-mail ListDigest Archive Files
VAL Digest V1 #65
VAL Digest Thursday, November 13 2003 Volume 01 : Number 065
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Topics in Today's Digest:
[VAL] Floor repair
Re: [VAL] Floor repair
RE: [VAL] 1957 Window Parts
[VAL] Photo's of 59 TradeWind
RE: [VAL] Floor repair
Re: [VAL] The cost of Desire
RE: [VAL] Photo's of 59 TradeWind
Re: [VAL] 1957 Window Parts
[VAL] Brake Controler
[VAL] Re: the cost of desire
Re: [VAL] Re: the cost of desire
[VAL] mildly off-topic trailer plans.
[VAL] RE: INVERTERS
Re: [VAL] Brake Controler new technology on the horizon
Re: [VAL] Brake Controler new technology on the horizon
Re: [VAL] RE: INVERTERS
Re: [VAL] RE: INVERTERS
Re: [VAL] RE: INVERTERS
Re: [VAL] RE: INVERTERS
Re: [VAL] RE: INVERTERS
Re: [VAL] RE: INVERTERS
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:51:28 -0500
From: "Deborah Bede" <stillwaterstudio@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Floor repair
Hi Chris:
I'm right in the middle of floor replacement on my 1955 Bubble and it's been
a real experience. There is a great deal of information in the archives, be
creative with your searches and you'll find out a lot. But I found some
surprises with my trailer that were not revealed in other's posts. Every
trailer seems to be different, and there also seems to be some variation
within a model year.
I debated between a "shell-off" and a "shell-on" replacement, and I chose
the former because it will allow me to easily update wiring and plumbing.
It also makes working on the frame a lot easier. I removed the entire
interior skin and here is where my first surprise came in. I found that the
interior end caps had been assembled outside the trailer with regular (not
"pop") rivets and then installed as a unit. This made removal of them much
easier, I didn't have to separate each one of those thirteen panels....
My biggest surprise came with the belly pan. Others have referred to
dropping the belly pan as if it is a simple matter of removing some rivets
and the pan drops off. Well, not with my trailer - the belly pan was
wrapped around the C-channel all the way around the trailer and the wrapping
continued behind the ribs so the belly pan couldn't be removed until the
outer shell was off. And it will have to go back on before I put the shell
back on.
But on the whole it's been a fairly simple operation so far. I haven't
started reassembling, but I know several other people who have done it
without problems.
Have fun!
Deborah
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 06:48:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Toby Folwick <toby_folwick@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Floor repair
I think it's important to understand the way
Airstreams are put together - I mean the order in
which they are put together.
As I understand it - the belly pan is put on the shell
first, which explains why it would be wrapped around
the C channel. then the upper shell is put on.
so, if you were to follow "the rules" (if there are
any) for a shell-off floor replacement, you'd:
1) remove the interior (cabinets etc.)
2) remove at least the lower interior wall panels
3) brace the upper shell against shape distortion
4) drill out the lower exterior rivets
5) detach the bolts holding the upper frame to the
floor
6) lift the upper shell
7) detach the belly pan
8) remove the flooring
9) restore the flooring and the frame
10) ...and reinstall everything in the reverse order.
In auto restoration books they often encourage that a
restorer repairs/restores everything as it's coming
out of the vehicle - fix it and put it in a bag - so
that when you finally get everything apart, it's
already all fixed up - and you just have to
reassemble.
the only problem I've found with this theory is that
if you're an impatient type, it's slow going at the
beginning and makes it a little harder to keep the
"energy" up.
okay -
Toby
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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:13:01 -0800
From: RJ.Dial@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: RE: [VAL] 1957 Window Parts
Here are 4 windows that will work (thin wall, all aluminum).
Availability will vary by what distributor you go to (the mfg's don't
sell retail). Window Dealers can be found in the phone book under
"windows-retail". One local dealer near us sells the International
brand only, for example.
http://www.intlwindow.com/jalousie-400.html
http://www.yaleogron.com/pdf/jalousie_windows.pdf
http://www.oranltd.com/Brochures/jalousie_windows.pdf
http://www.tafcocorp.com/jalousie.html
Two jalousies can be ganged together with a center picture window to
replace a missing forward or aft large window - very nice looking.
As for metal fabricators, there has to be at least a few in a town like
Green Bay. It's going to require heading into the rougher side of town.
Once again, the phone book is your friend.
Best of luck,
RJ
> -----Original Message-----
> From: kurt@xxxxxxxxxx.archetypegroup.com
> [mailto:kurt@xxxxxxxxxx.archetypegroup.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:45 PM
> To: Dial, RJ /sfoeg
> Subject: Re: [VAL] 1957 Window Parts
>
> On 11/11/03 3:43 PM, "RJ.Dial@xxxxxxxxxx.com" <RJ.Dial@xxxxxxxxxx.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the response, some good information. I would like
> the link to the
> custom jalousie windows if you have one. I am not sure which
> way I will go
> with the windows. I don have access to a metal fabricator too.
> Kurt
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:17:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Tognetti <ctognetti59@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Photo's of 59 TradeWind
Hi all,
Well this is what I'm working with. Watch out for loading times as I took 62 photo's.
Click on the photo to get a discription and larger picture.
RJ feel free to add these to your archive. This one has some difference than any others
you show.
Web site.
http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=331395
Chris, Amy, Natalie, Jordan Tognetti
Willie (Alaskan Malamute)
59 TradeWind
Newton, New Jersey
Serial # 249118
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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:20:31 -0800
From: RJ.Dial@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: RE: [VAL] Floor repair
Belly Pan removal varies by year, location and model. Some are
independent of the edge/corner wraps, some have the edge/corner wrap
built into the belly skin, and others have the side panels form the edge
wrap. All of it involves rivet drilling and time to figure out just how
the trailer was fabricated so as to proceed in the affected skin
removal.
Later,
RJ
> My biggest surprise came with the belly pan. Others have referred to
> dropping the belly pan as if it is a simple matter of
> removing some rivets
> and the pan drops off. Well, not with my trailer - the belly pan was
> wrapped around the C-channel all the way around the trailer
> and the wrapping
> continued behind the ribs so the belly pan couldn't be
> removed until the
> outer shell was off. And it will have to go back on before I
> put the shell
> back on..........
> Deborah
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:22:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Tognetti <ctognetti59@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] The cost of Desire
I like this.
What I'm looking for is a trailer that will fit my growing family. Have two little ones and plan
on more. Big enough to house everyone on a rainy day and small enough to travel well. Also
something that will last. If it survived to be 44 years old I think it could survive another 44
years in my care. Plus owning a bit of history is nice and the extended family that comes with
an Airstream is welcome.
Chris, Amy, Natalie, Jordan Tognetti
Willie (Alaskan Malamute)
59 TradeWind
Newton, New Jersey
Serial # 249118
Gary <verygary@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com> wrote:
I have been following the questions posed by Chris Tognetti and his
queries about
weather or not to take the next step and actually undertake this
restoration. It sounds like you are getting some good advice on the
costs envolved from other members. I have read numbers around the 7k
area which sounds in the middle range considering the condition of the
trailer and what your final asthetic considerations are. What about the
other costs? What is your expected time frame to get this trailer on
the road. How much time can you spend on this project and how will it
affect other parts of your life. Will it provide a stress relieving
distraction or help add to it. Married with children? Can you do this
now? I think you are talking years to get this trailer in usable
service from the sound of it's overall condition. That may be OK as long
as you realize the timeline. This is not going to be an immediate
gradification project.
I own a 62' Safari. Which I have named Sylvia. Now if you will picture a
sophisticated "mature" woman with specific needs that she has developed
over many years from being a member of a "special class." Mrs Robinson
comes to mind from "The Graduate" I know a younger Sylvia would be a
heathier choice, but my Sylvia has other needs that cannot be denied.
Because of her cool exterior patina that has withstood all of the harsh
realities of nature, along with that understated inner style, it was
first difficult to imagine how much effort it would take to bring out
that former LUSTer of a time gone by. But just below the surface of all
those harsh realities rest the kind of character that is difficult to
find in younger models. Sylvia has NEEDS. Most of the time they seem to
be very mysterious desires, hidden in some unseen place just below the
surface. Should I look there? Start peeling back that surface to expose
things I may not be able to handle? Or, should I carefully ask a few
questions from others who have also been suduced by the same desire.
This relationship is not for the unprepared. One must have or acquire
the "tools" to handle many of the adjustments and modifications that
will be asked of you. One must develop the vocabulary neccessary to be
understood by others that may be able to help guide you. You must allow
for "space" when needed as we all know we need a space to call our own.
Are you prepared to field questions from curious friends and neighbors
about where you are spending all of your free time and money? Some
people will not understand. They will assume you have finally have
confirmed what they suspected all along. I have discovered there are
many things I was unprepared for, and yet, I was driven to acquire and
provide them to Sylvia. Sylvia has my number. Be careful what you
desire.
Gary Campbell
1962 Safari
wbcci 3363
Portland, Maine
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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:27:46 -0800
From: RJ.Dial@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: RE: [VAL] Photo's of 59 TradeWind
Ah, looks a lot like our 1956 Flying Cloud when I started working on it.
It will be 3 years in May. Figure it will be ready for the road in
another 2-3 years of leisurely work (10-15 hrs a month).
Best of luck,
RJ
VintageAirstream.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ctognetti59@xxxxxxxxxx.com [mailto:ctognetti59@xxxxxxxxxx.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 9:17 AM
> To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> Cc: ctognetti59@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> Subject: [VAL] Photo's of 59 TradeWind
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Well this is what I'm working with. Watch out for loading
> times as I took 62 photo's. Click on the photo to get a
> discription and larger picture.
>
> RJ feel free to add these to your archive. This one has some
> difference than any others you show.
>
> Web site.
> http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=331395
>
>
> Chris, Amy, Natalie, Jordan Tognetti
> Willie (Alaskan Malamute)
> 59 TradeWind
> Newton, New Jersey
> Serial # 249118
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:05:31 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 1957 Window Parts
I have a collection of jalousie windows that I took out of a Monitor
travel trailer last month before I destroyed the rotten body. I don't
yet have an inventory of dimensions. Most need the operator gear turned
to get past the stripped tooth at closed. Some day I'll make a list and
make them more known. All have good glass.
The front window had two jalousies together, each half the width of the
trailer, but one continuous frame.
The trailer frame and axles has just about been resurrected as a flat
bed utility trailer, a little shorter. Needs wheel bearing packing and
two more strips of wood to make it complete though I have begun hauling
loads on it and yesterday I gave it a set of new Titan ST205-75R15 tires
and it sure pulls nice compared to the flat spotted nylon truck tires it
had before that were about to fly apart.
Gerald J.
- --
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:05:51 -0600
From: "Don Hardman" <donhardman@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Brake Controler
I just received the fall newsletter from Hensley Arrow and they are now
offering a Brake Controller product, TruControl. Does anyone have any
additional info on this controller.
Don Hardman
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:49:53 -0800 (PST)
From: jon fitz <fitzjo1@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Re: the cost of desire
Chris--now that you've heard from Gary, let this be a
warning to you. If you aren't careful, you could end
up like him and the rest of us! ;)
For example, I'm trying to figure out whether I'll put
cork or linoleum in my airstream. I just can't bear
that non-vintage indoor/outdoor carpet that the PO
installed. Meanwhile, the kitchen (of our house) was
due for a new floor about three years ago. Amazingly,
even my wife has had her judgement sufficiently
impaired so as not to notice this disparity.
I employ Gary's logic with my wife on a regular basis.
I need these tools. And besides, they could be, uh,
useful for other things. For example, if I get laid
off, I could use them to be an Airstream mechanic!
Here's the most important thing to remember: It's not
about whether the necessary tools will run up the cost
of the hobby...it's about whether the hobby requires
enough tools.
Jon in SC
68 Overlander
wbcci 9573
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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:46:26 -0500
From: <Balloon@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: the cost of desire
Jon,
There was a "carpet upgrade" on that year and model.
Just one more thing to think about??
Paul Waddell
WBCCI/VAC/WDCU 1270
1966 Overlander (with carpet in the living room/bedroom area,
(tile in the kitchen/bath area)
I could not make up my mind, so I went with both!
>
> For example, I'm trying to figure out whether I'll put
> cork or linoleum in my airstream. I just can't bear
> that non-vintage indoor/outdoor carpet that the PO
> installed.
>
> Jon in SC
> 68 Overlander
> wbcci 9573
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:59:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Toby Folwick <toby_folwick@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] mildly off-topic trailer plans.
I don't want to get too off topic here but I just
received a link to a site with trailer plans available
from the old mechanix illustrated magazines etc: I
was really hoping to see the old "original" airstream
plans in there (like #1935 Dr. Holman's rig) but no
such luck - but I thought y'all might like to look
anyway.
http://members.aol.com/elsquared/trailerplans.html
Toby
p.s. I'm not affiliated with this guy in any way.
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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:24:21 -0600
From: "Dan Childress" <daniel@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] RE: INVERTERS
I AM SEEKING INFORMATION ON INVERTERS. CHANGING DC TO AC. I AM UNABLE TO
USE PROPANE IN MY CAMPER DUE TO ALLERGIC REACTIONS TO FUMES. ANY INFO WOULD
BE GREAT. SIZE, NUMBER OF BATTERIES, WIRING, KNOW NOTHING.
DAN
1969 CARAVEL
#14148
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:38:28 -0800
From: "Oliver Filippi" <ofilippi@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Brake Controler new technology on the horizon
I hope the following observation is not wishfull thinking, but very likely
to happen in the next few years.
Many new vehicles (especially high end imports) are going to a "fly by wire"
brake control. That is, the brake pedal is not connected to the brake
hydraulic system, but rather to an electrical transponder (typically a
potentiometer). The brake computer then reads the electrical signal (and
the characteristics of it - i.e. panic stop? etc.) and applies the
vehicle's brakes accordingly.
Several months ago, I drove a Mercedes on a test track environment and
slammed on the brakes. The computer controled fly by wire brake system just
nailed the car to the pavement in almost no time at all (and an amazingly
short distance) with no deviation from the straight line, swerving or
skidding. Very impressive. The only problem is that if someone is
following close behind, he will probably be in your back seat.
Given this type of "fly by wire" system in the tow vehicle, it should be
relatively easy to extend this to the trailer brake controller with
impressive capabilities.
Finally, we will be actuating the trailer brakes in concert with the action
of the tow vehicle's drivers INPUTS and the action taken by the tow vehicle
braking system BEFORE the actual braking action can be sensed by an
accelerometer - A little like the old days with the Kelsey-Hayes hydraulic
controller, only much better.
But this time, a computer can be more selective in the exact electrical
signal it sends to the trailer brakes. Possibly, antilock brakes on the tow
vehicle AND the trailer.
Trivia question:
World wide, what automotive manufacturer took out the most patents last year
(2002) ?
Answer: Surprise! Delphi, the automotive electric/electronics subsidiary
of General Motors.
[I think this is indicative of where a significant number of automotive
advances will be coming from in the future.]
Oliver Filippi
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:45:30 -0600
From: Jim Clark <jec1938@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Brake Controler new technology on the horizon
Hi All:
Apparently Hensley has branched out into the brake controller area... I
just received a mailing that offered a new brake controller that operated
off the pressure in the brake line... My guess is a modern sensor is
finally being inserted in the line, but I have no details... The unit is a
little computer as it also displays info on brake system problems...
As usual with Hensley the cost is about twice the other systems...
Jim
At 05:38 PM 11/12/2003, you wrote:
>I hope the following observation is not wishfull thinking, but very likely
>to happen in the next few years.
>
>Many new vehicles (especially high end imports) are going to a "fly by wire"
>brake control. That is, the brake pedal is not connected to the brake
>hydraulic system, but rather to an electrical transponder (typically a
>potentiometer).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:05:46 -0600
From: Jim Clark <jec1938@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] RE: INVERTERS
Dan:
Allergies can be a real problem.. I think heating the camper is the big
problem, you can't carry enough batteries to supply electric heat for
anything bigger than the sleeping bags... at least not for long...
With a modern furnace, I don't think you will have much in the way of
fumes, but then I don't have the sensitivity to the combustion fumes that
would cause me to notice....
I have 4 batteries in the back of the truck and a Hart Interface Inverter
that will supply a 15 amp circuit for a while and will power a TV and DVD
for a lot longer.... A heavy drain like a hair curler will sap the
batteries quickly...Trying to heat the trailer would be impossible..
One of the principle reasons for LP is the ease in carrying a considerable
amount of BTUs in a small container...
.If you can stand the exhaust from a car or a generator, you could carry
the BTU's as gasoline and run the generator to operate a heat pump or
resistance heaters... You could mount the generator in the back of the
truck and keep it remote by the use of a fairly long power cord...I carry
about 100' as a 50' generator cord, a 25' extension and the 25' or so that
is on the trailer. Your generator would have to be sizeable ... like a
7.5KW or maybe even bigger... I assume you will still want to cook in the
trailer with electric as well....
Good luck...let us know how your research progresses...
Jim
At 05:24 PM 11/12/2003, you wrote:
>I AM SEEKING INFORMATION ON INVERTERS. CHANGING DC TO AC. I AM UNABLE TO
>USE PROPANE IN MY CAMPER DUE TO ALLERGIC REACTIONS TO FUMES. ANY INFO WOULD
>BE GREAT. SIZE, NUMBER OF BATTERIES, WIRING, KNOW NOTHING.
> DAN
>1969 CARAVEL
>#14148
>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:42:54 EST
From: JSmith1805@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] RE: INVERTERS
I use a 4kva honda generator on the toung of my tradewinf and it handles the
load quite well
Jim Smith
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:16:54 -0600
From: Jim Clark <jec1938@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] RE: INVERTERS
Jim :
Are you all electric ??
Jim Clark
At 08:42 PM 11/12/2003, you wrote:
>I use a 4kva honda generator on the toung of my tradewinf and it handles the
>load quite well
>Jim Smith
>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 22:14:18 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] RE: INVERTERS
Look up Home Power Magazine and their web site and their vendors for
solar panels, batteries, and inverters.
Try to run as much as possible (entertainment, lights, and small
appliances) on the battery voltage, probably 12 volts for convenience in
those devices. Use fluorescent or LED lamps instead of incandescent
lamps for better battery life.
Cooking, and heating are difficult. The batteries a Caravel can haul
won't do much for electric heat nor air conditioning.
Propane fumes are less troubling that gasoline fumes in most cases and a
generator is going to supply copious combustion fumes much dirtier than
a propane flame. And the generator, whether gasoline or propane will use
at least 4 times the energy to run heating and cooking appliances than
burning the propane directly. An internal combustion engine, especially
a lightly loaded small engine will waste at least 75% of the heating
value of the fuel. A surface burner should waste less than 25% of the
heating value of the fuel. A microwave will then have probably only
about 50% efficiency from electricity to heat, though it does
concentrate the heat IN the food and so that's a short time use compared
to an electric stove surface element.
Inverters are never 100% efficient, some are pretty good, others are
probably not very good, and inverters lightly loaded are not very good,
yet to run an induction motor load requires the inverter to be
significantly oversized to start the motor.
Perhaps what you need are more effective venting of the kitchen stove
and the furnace burning propane for heat and cooking, then use
electricity for all the rest of the incidentals. In some areas you might
be able to find butane to use instead of propane but the appliances will
all need to be rejetted and adjusted for butane. The energy density of a
tank of propane is a great deal larger than that of heavy batteries,
that's why we use propane for heat and cooking in travel trailers.
Battery energy just isn't practical for those loads.
Oh, and besides the copious fumes of the generator on gas or propane,
its going to add NOISE to the campground that will annoy more than you.
Gerald J.
- --
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 23:34:25 EST
From: JSmith1805@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] RE: INVERTERS
I am totaly electric Elect deep freeze elect fridge 2burner elect hotn plate
21/2 gal fast recovery water heater micro wave Ac with heat strip. cannot run
the AC,water htr,and hot plate at the same time when on generator I normaly
turn off at least one of the hight Amp appliances.
Jim Smith
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 23:42:18 EST
From: JSmith1805@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] RE: INVERTERS
I should have added that the generator is liquid cooled and the fumes are on
the outside of the trailer the exaust is piped to the rear of the trailer. if
one has a sevear aligery to propane fumes there is no way they can be vented
well enough as not to cause an asma attact I raised a severly asmatic
daughter.we had to move to FL sowe could have an all electric home.
Jim Smith
------------------------------
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